tv The Kelly File FOX News January 4, 2015 6:00pm-7:01pm PST
>> good evening and well kwomcome to a "kelly files" special the baby lissing mystery. lisa irwin captured the nation's attention. how could an infant disappear from her crib in the middle of the night? the images of lisa with her big blue eyes were splashed all over national media. three years later there is still no trace of her. there are suspicions most of them involving lisa's mother deborah who was at home that night and says she was sleeping. fox news said lisa add deborah may
have blacked out but she always denied involvement in her daughter's disappearance. as the months passed the searchs eventually stopped and the story faded from the spotlight until now. the kelly file has obtained never before seen interviews of lisa's parents in the days immediately after her disappearance. secret tapes recorded by a former top cia officer, a government trained spy and interrogator and what he found could change everything you thought you knew about this case. >> what involvement did you have in the disappearance of lisa? oo i am sorry. >> evidence indicates that you are involved. is there any reason that any one will come forward with evidence
legitimate evidence or information that would indicate or identify involvement on your part with your daughter's disappearance? >> no. because of her reaction when i said she is not in there. >> what happened after that? >> i said she is not in the crib. she is not in the crib. we were just running all over. i said we got to find her. we got to find her. i her rememberher being -- she was sitting on the floor by the front door crying and screaming my baby my baby. >> in minutes my exclusive interview with the man they call the human lie detector who interrogated lisa's parents. but first a look back at the case that rev vetted the -- riveted
the nation. >> november 11th, 2010 little lisa irwin is born to parents deborah and jeremy. the youm couple unmarried lives a seemingly quiet life along with his 8-year-old son blake and deborah's 5-year-old daughter. money is tight so jeremy works over time when he can including on the night of october 3rd, 2011. baby lisa is 10 months old. jeremy leaves the family home around 5:30 in the evening. within hours disaster will strike. at 6:40 p.m. deborah puts lisa in her crib then heads to her porch to visit with a female neighbor. the pair will spend hours on the porch drinking wine, lots of it. deborah goes to bed four hours later. she initially tells police she checked on lisa who she says was asleep in her crib. she turns out the house lights
and goes to sleep with her son michael in her bed. the time is 10:40 p.m. at 4:00 a.m..er me returns home immediately he notices something unusual. all of the house lights are turned on. the front door is unlocked. he tries to wake deborah but she is groggy so he checks on lisa. here begins the story of every parent's nightmare. his 10 month old daughter gone frommer had crib. his baby appears to have vanished. he tells deborah. they are both distraught. he bangs on the neighbor's door. the neighbor answers and he asked whether lisa is there. he's told she is not. he returns home and notices the three family's cell phones are missing from the kitchen. he uses his work phone to call 911. authorities show up and begin searching to the girl. jeremy tells police about the lights and front door and the
something else he noticed. he says in their computer room gown the down the hall from the bedroom the screen in the windows appears to have been tampered with. they search the area but no sign of little lisa. they tell the public the parents are cooperating. the next day the story goes national when jeremy and deborah appear on tv to beg for lisa's safe return. >> please, bring her home. our two other boys are waiting for her. please. drop her off anywhere. we don't care. somewhere safe where she can come home, please. >> deborah is soon given a lie detector test. she later reveals police claim she failed. within days the kansas city police say the parents are no longer cooperating which deborah and jeremy deny. one week after lisa went missing the fbi and police stage a break in to discover ways a intruder come enter the home.
climbing through the tampered window was difficult and say the intruder would have made noise. they also traveled and advise i hadity the house. >> this is the window through which the family believes the intruder entered their home on the night in question. it leads to the computer room you can get to baby lisa's room. right over here is the family's backyard. you can see it is fenced in. they have a dog that stays in this backyard normally 24/7. they did not hear their dog bark. right here is the neighbor's house. they also have a dog. here he comes, who also stays in the backyard 24/7. his family tells me he barks at just about anything. >> over the next few days firefighters drain a well on the porch of an abandoned nearby home. jay dixon orders a one-day deployment of 25 national guards man to help with the search. nothing comes of it. then two bombshells. >> this is a fox news alert on
breaking developments in the disappearance of 11 month old lisa irwin. america live unearthing major new developments in the story. i flew to kansas city missouri and sat down for a two-hour one-on-one interview with little lisa's parents deborah bradley and jeremy irwin. >> during that interview deborah admits to heavy drinking on the night her daughter disappeared telling fox news she drank 5-10 glasses of wine then she changes the entire time line of the evening. she now claims she is not sure if sheon her baby at 10:40 as she originally claimed. she said she thinks the last time she saw her child may have been at 6:40 p.m. >> let's talk about the wine. how much did you consume that day? >> i had several glasses of wine. >> when you say several, more than 3? >> yeah, but that has nothing to
do with her. >> more than 5? >> probably. >> more than 101234>> no oo -- 10? >> no. >> when you went in at 10:30 what did you do? >> probably went right to my room. >> what do you mean probably? >> because sometimes i check on her. most of the time i check on her. >> you don't remember? >> no. >> so it's possible you did not check on her before you went to bed? >> yeah. >> so the last time you saw your daughter alive in your home was when you put her down at 6:40. >> when i put her down yes. >> the new information is a major development. an additional four hours have been added to the case. and that wasn't the only part of deborah's story that changed. listen to the answer she gave two fox news anchors regarding the house window? >> do you think they came into that window? >> based on the condition it was in could someone have come
through that that you saw? >> no. >> days later a missouri judge grants a search warrant for police to search the irwin's home. they take brown paper bags along with lisa's toys. the f fwshg i brings-- fbi brings in cadaver dogs potentially giving up an important clue they might have discovered had they used the dogs on night one. one of the dogs hits on something marking the scent of possible human remains in an area on the floor near diabeteseborah's bed. november 8th more than a month has now passed new potentially important details emerge about the family's missing cell phones. police records prove that deborah's phone was used the night baby lisa disappeared hours after deborah claims she went to bed. according to police the first phone call is asem pptttempts at 11:57
p.m. and again at 3:17 a.m. someone attempts to check deborah's voice mill and access the internet. five minutes later 3:22 another attempt to check voice mail and access the internet. in all five attemptses to get on-line through those phones a that night. an attorney later reveals fbi told them the cell phones never not more than a third of a mile away from the irwin home. the phones were used around midnight and three hours later which raises the question who would steal a baby and three cell phones only to sit by the baby's occupied house for several hours on a cold autumn night? as for the midnight phone call that was atome presidenttempted police looked into the numbers dialled. the call was to megan wright she lived toin a shared home used by
drug users. >> there was a call made from a phone to my cell phone. i don't know what was said or who answered my phone. >> rice tell police she did not answer any calls because she didn't have herphone that night. she claims she shares it with her roommate. wright also says she does not know the irwins who live about a mile away. the irwin's tornsattorneys show no prior calls between megan's number and deborah or jeremy in the 7 months before lisa disappeared. a new twist develops. megan wright claims her ex-boyfriend might know the irwins. he's the neighborhood handy man joen as john jersey tank co. he is referred to as jersey joe. a man with a criminal record a man who is bald and fits the description of three neighbors
who tell police they saw a bald man with a baby on the night of lisa's disappearance. another neighbor claims jersey was once broke into a home only a block away from lisa's house. deborah's attorney pushes a claim that jersey was bragging about getting $300 for stealing baby lisa. police say jersey is not a suspect he has an alibi and has been cleared of any involvement. the irwins want jersey investigated but police aren't biting. late in the case deborah's attorney revealed she didn't actually fail the police administered polygraph test. he said police admitted to him that they lied about that to try to force a confession. it didn't work. this to this day deborah maintains her innocence. >> to people who may be watching
having doubts about whether you had any involvement in this what do you say to them? >> there's a bad guy out there with my baby right now and those people that are judging me, please, just look for her. >> next the never before seen interviews of little lisa's parents. hear deborah's response when she is asked point blank whether she is responsible for lisa's disappearance. and why our next guest and his analysis may change everything you thought you knew about this case. ...heartburn. did someone say burn? try alka seltzer reliefchews. they work just as fast and are proven to taste better than tums smoothies assorted fruit. mmm... amazing. yeah, i get that a lot. alka seltzer heartburn reliefchews. enjoy the relief.
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both parents about what happened here. >> i think the fist question i need to ask you this morning okay, is what involvement did you have in the disappearance of lisa? >> none. the only thing i did wrong was drank that night and possibly not be alert, not hear. i am sorry. >> phil houston worked for the cia for 25 years he worked with thousands of agents and grilled terrorists. he has a deception detection method used through out u.s. intel and federal law enforcement world. he is also ceo of qvarity and
coauthor of spy the lie former cia officers teach you how to detect deception. >> good to see you. >> most of what america doesn't know is you and another partner went to interview deborah and jeremy about the disappearance. you went in with an open mind. it is on the tapes. you say i am not here to represent you i am here to represent the baby. i may bring this to the police this is an open interview. >> she had been through a ton of questioning as had jeremy. one of the things we would be concerned about is thild be conditioned to answer these kinds of questions. if we are going to be able to spotted a lie there has to be a fear of detection, a fear of getting caught. we wanted to make sure that they would instill or reinstill if you will. >> did you go with any
preconceived notions of their guilt? >> we did. we went in with an open mind it wasn't quite true in the sense of riding out there on the plane i did believe based on what i had heard and what i had heard from the comments by the kansas city pd and others that the parents were probably guilty. also statistically they were parental involvement. i assumed it was a high probability of her being builty. >> when you asked the question what went on? >> you notice what i didn't ask her is did you do it? if i say did do you it every criminal expects to be asked that question. >> what involvement did you have. >> involvement is presump tiff. the truthful person doesn't have to process that question. the deceptive person the criminal what involvement did you have? what do they know?
what is it they have spotted what is it they have uncovered. all of that processing will manifest itself as deceptive indicators. >> in that answer what did you hear? >> sdwent see the deceptive indicators. she answered the question directly. we are not giving her credit for answering it directly but we are giving her credit not exhibiting the deceptive indicators. you p didn't see any significant nonverbal. what got our attention immediately is in the question she went to the fact that she was drunk that night. she was accepting some culpability for what happened. >> which is the behavior of the truth teller. >> you don't see criminals taking culpability for the event. >> met me play the-- let me play the second question of the interview. >> is there any reason that any
one will provide information or evidence that indicates that you were or are involved in her disappearance? >> no no. >> what's happening there? >> same thing. what's really interesting is, and it's perhaps not obvious on camera is that between the first question and her answer and that answer and that question was about 8 or 9 seconds. that's a long time for someone who has done something as horrible and despicable as either cover up the death of a child or were responsible for the death of a child and aren't disclosing it. she answered that question without hesitation. without any of that processing that i referred to a moment ago, again i confess i was a bit surprised. >> a guilty person would be
looking to get out of bounds. >> in other words, what do i know? it plants a mind virus. is there any reason that evidence. what evidence have they uncovered? where did i not cover my tracks so to speak. there was none of that pros seg -- processing. we are not ready to aukwalk away and say she didn't do it. >> there's much more of the interview including the interview with jeremy. they were ferperformed separately. we have more after this break. strand by. what jeremy irwin had to say about the moment he realized his daughter was missing and why phil and his partner found this. well, did you know that playing cards with kenny rogers gets old pretty fast? ♪ you got to know when to hold'em. ♪ ♪ know when to fold 'em. ♪ ♪ know when to walk away. ♪ ♪ know when to run. ♪ ♪ you never count your money, ♪ ♪ when you're sitting at the ta...♪
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it's not possible because i wasn't so it would just be another one of their lies. >> what do we see there? >> a tough question especially for someone who is lying. in this particular case we didn't see deceptive behavior. we didn't see what sounded like a lie. it's a question that is designed to provoke deceptive behavior from a deceptive person. >> like the police have got something. the>> exactly. we didn't see that. >> what about the body language. his manner in general is quiet. >> exactly. that's jeremy's personality and manner. one of the things we know is there were some people as iatching on tv before we interviewed lisa and jeremy, they said deborah looked guilty -- or jeremy looked
guilty. you can't make those kind of assess ams based on someone's appearance. you are only guessing at why they are behaving that way at that moment. what you have to look for with deception is understand what the stimulus is for potential deceptive behavior and see if it provokes deceptive behavior. >> could they have been coached. could a layer have said when you answer the question deny it outright don't elaborate period. can't they be coached into deceiving you? >> they could be coached but the likelihood of that masking deceptive behavior is highly unlikely. >> you don't think they could fool you? >> i don't think so but one never knows. there's no such thing as a human detector. at the end of the day we are human. >> what would the body language have been if they were being deceptive? >> within of the things we would have seen is physical activity a
speak in anxiety. if you are worried that i know something that the police have that you don't know spike anxiety without thinking about the autonomic nervous system kicks in starts to dissipate that anxiety. we will see movement grooming gestures, shifts things of that nature. >> you are not just looking for the words you are watching there. >> here's another moment where jeremy describes a first moment he got back home he went to deborah and realize lisa is missing. >> i said she is not in the crib. she is not in the crib. and that is when all hell broke lose and we realized she wasn't where she was supposed to be. started running all over the house screaming and looking for
her. >> when you say screaming what were you saying? >> we were just we were just running all over and i said we got to find her. we got to find her. at this point in time both of the boys are in the hallway. deborah is yelling at them look for your sister. we are running all over the house looking in krozclosets and under beds. >> what did you see there? >> what i saw in particular was a lack of choreography lack of prepared statement. he was struggling for the words as to what they said lathat night. some could argue maybe he is lying and he can't -- he didn't say those things. >> he is not going off of
memory. >> exactly. but in reality in a moment of high emotion, high tension you put some time between that even a few days it is hashed to remember if somebody said what exactly did you say when this happened people don't typically remember word for word what they said. he wasn't afraid to reflect that i am not remembering that as opposed to something that sounded like a pat answer. >> you did the interview along with a colleague. but you interviewed them separately. do you and your colleague discussion it wait until the end and share your independent conclusions? >> we have a set of questions we go in and we have a methodology or approach where we pass the paw ton between the two of us. we accident three hours with deborah and three hours with
jeremy. the we are taking no breaks and not comparing. at the end we were looking at each other scratching our heads because -- >> hold that thought. up next we are going to ask phil what the conclusion was when it was all over what does he think now. we will show you how jeremy reacted when police presented one of their therapies to him on the -- theories to him. could the suspect be responsible? what about this man. phil weighs in on the man called jersey. later this hour mark fuhrman will be here to share his theory on why he thinks without a doubt he thinks they are guilty. >> is there any reason in i one will come forward with evidence legitimate evidence or information that would indicate or identify involvement on your part with your daughter's disappearance? >> no.
lewey gomer announcing earlier today he plans to challenge ohio's john by another to boehner to be the next speaker of the house. american worker exposed to ebola has arrived at a nebraska hospital. the patient was flown into the hospital earlier this afternoon he drove the patient to the hospital's special bio containment unit. the paint had been identified but he will be watched during the 21 day incubation period. now back to the kelly files. for all of the headlines go to foxnews.com. >> it is one of the most frequently asked questions why does jeremy irwin believe jeremy had nothing to do with the daughter's disappearance? watch. >> because of her reaction when i said she is not in there.
so i knew that that's when deborah came unglued. i knew obviously that was where she was supposed to be. to be. >> all >> all right. okay. ok so so what happened after that? >> um, run all over. i says, you know maybe maybe for some reason she's next door at sam's house. >> did you ask debbie, deborah, if she was at sam's house? did you mention that to deborah before you -- >> i don't think so. i remember her being -- she was sitting on the floor by the front door crying and screaming my baby, my baby. >> joining me >> joining me is the founding
partner as well of qvarity who was hired an unnamed benefactor to help find baby lisa. >> what were we seeing there? >> in that particular case he was simply responding to the question. we don't see any convincing behavior. the behavior was like to say for a truthful person the facts are their ally. they are not afraid to deal with those, okay? what do you say? they typically people will go into the convince mode when they are lying. he is not in the convince mode he is relating what happened and not dressing it up. >> we are going to join mark fuhrman again. you said you went there thinking probably they did it to you. >> the one question mark in my
mind was do the police have something that we don't know. it's not my belief that they do. but they are not obligated obviously to share everything with us. but absent that the analysis of the fact pattern suggests and combined with their behavior in our mind says they didn't do it. >> you think fuhrman is wrong. you spent a lot of time with his family. you think police need to be looking at this guy jersey we talked about in the package. >> well will helet me say i respect mark's skill set but he might as we will be a reporter of rolling stones all he knows is what he sees. we put boots on the ground we know a lot. we don't know all. we shared with the kansas city police department. we are going back and forth did this person do it? jersey joe there is so much compelling circumstantial and fact patents that lead to him i
believe he needs to be focused on and refocused on. >> we reached out to them even just now and said what's the evidence on jersey? why have you moved on to him? they wouldn't tell us anything about jersey. >> with certain police departments and i am not saying it's the case here but certain police departments there is almost a fear to go out because they don't want to be wrong? i am not saying that's the case here. i am hoping this special what you are doing here may reopen eyes of certain people and prosecuting office to look at jersey and other avenues. >> i know this is a strange question but if she wasn't killed by her parents where could she possibly be wouldn't there have been some sign of her? >> you know what? i think of this when i was down there and you were down there and that weather was cold this little baby this little lost soul is out there in the hands of a stranger or left alone, who did this? this question needs to be answered. when people say they watch the
motivation obviously the parents didn't do it for the money. if it was done by mistake how can you have it both ways you drank so much wine and became a master criminal let's look at jersey joe a meth addict. what motivation does a meth addict need? he was known for breaking and entering known for petty criminals doing petty larcenies and the most compelling thing is 12:30 there was witnesses a husband and a wife around the corner that saw a wife baldman bald head walking with a baby. >> the number dialled on theher phone was megan wright who shared phones with an x of him. >> telephonic history had never been shown before in any of the irwin's telephone messaging or telephone numbers another had it been dialled or received before that night. >> you saw the phone records and you showed them to me i have
seen that myself. >> gentlemen, it has been a pleasure. >> appreciate it. >> he haun one of the most vocal critics since the story first made national headlines. up next why mark fuhrman believes this couple deborah in particular is very guilty even after watching all of this. will provide information or evidence that indicates that you were or are involved in her disappearance -- >> no. plus presents the cold truth. i have a cold, with terrible chest congestion. better take something. i'll catch up later. awww... truth is, theraflu severe cold doesn't treat chest congestion. really? new alka-seltzer plus day powder rushes relief to your worst cold symptoms plus chest congestion. oh, what a relief it is. here we go! woooo! woooo!
see tonight? >> well i am not deterred from my opinion that deborah bradley is most definitely the suspect whether intentional or otherwise. i think she was responsible for the disappearance and most probably the death of lisa irwin. i don't think jeremy is involved at all. i think he is an unwitting pawn of deborah bradley that is going along with her innocence routine. really the scam that's going on here. >> why? you heard phil. he has no horses in this race. he says she did not indicate deception. is he owe>> with all due respect for someone who worked with terrorists that's nice. you observe them for hours days months years you see how they are on and off interrogation. this wasn't an interrogation it
was barely an interview. >> they admit it was an interview and it wouldn't have switched over to interrogation if they saw identifiers. >> it couldn't because they have no evidence to confront deborah or jeremy about the crime scene or the disappearance. they didn't have the privilege to have that information as the police department has whether it's forensics or other evidence they have such as the cadaver dog that keyed in the bedroom they don't have that information or time lines or cell phone records. they don't have anything neither does bill stanton. this is the interesting part of this investigation is that interview was entertaining but it meant nothing. she failed a polygraph. >> well -- >> she was inconclusive at best. >> we think she was fooled but then they told the lawyer the police told them she p didn't actually fail that was a tactic. we don't know what the truth is.
>> the truth is let's go with deborah bradley. she said she failed. she was confronted she will not allow herself a one-on one conversation with the detectives in an interrogation room setting. that being said, she allows somebody that is a private citizen that worked for the cia to come in and ask her softball questions. larry king questions. of course she is going to be able to answer those questions. she is had time to prepare for them and she is had people preparing. why would they allow her to sit down with this man if they thought tlvz going to be anyway she was going to be deceptive and what did it mean? it would mean nothing. >> twha do you think is the most compelling piece of evidence against her? i realize the statistics suggest it is always the parents but what is your view? >> let's throw statistics throw efrl we know about this crime or any other crime that's like it.
look at this on face value. you have to turn the coin over and look at what you don't have. first, it is supposedly a kidnapping. it's not a kidnapping. there's no ransom note no ransom call. nobody has the baby and wants money. there's no blackmail involved. it's not a kidnapping. that means you are dealing with a missing child or a homicide. >> what about selling the baby? >> that -- it's not something that even happens in this country. most of it happens with babies that are adopted from other countries they use it in the black market. these are things that people want to create some kind of cloud of doubt. you look at this information that you have. the baby goes missing first deborah bradley says she puts the baby down at 10:30. when you interview her she used
you to actually bring the real time 6:40 in the evening she puts the baby down as the actual time to put the baby in the crib. what good would it be to do that on your show? you didn't have any information to interrogate her as to what that change of time line meant. the police wanted to talk to her but she wouldn't allow that. when you have this, this circumstance she blacked out. she also conveniently brought the 6 and 8-year-old to her bedroom. why? that was an alibi. they are in her bedroom. she has two people that can say i was with mommy asleep in her room. when you have the 10 clb 30 time line something happened to the baby and deborah bradley left the house. why are the cell phones missing? a kidnaper comes in and has no
trace evidence whatsoever. not a hair not a fiber. dna finger print, nothing. takes three cell phones. how is the kidnaper supposed to get a hold of the people that he wants money from or to tell them he has the baby? why did he take the cell phones. he didn't. that was her way of showing there was somebody else in the house. >> thank you so much for being with us tonight. >> thank you. >> this past november marked 4 years since baby lisa was born. deborah and jeremy join me to talk about what life is like now without their daughter.
i know that it is not true and my most important goal and focus is bringing my daughter home. a oo do you think the police are following up on any leads now? >> i do. i have faith that they are. >> why? oo well, recently we had called up there and they are saying there are still at least two leads that come in a week they check on every single one of them. we are supposed to meet with them over the holidays to go over all of the information we have given them that we found. >> you have begunen in touch with them? >> we have kept in contact with them most of this whole time. >> how do you survive? four years and you haven't seen her. how do you survive? >> it is pretty difficult. just stuck in the day-to-day motions every day.
the same thing over and over. you try to keep it together. try to keep yourself together one more day get to tomorrow and see what happens. >> i know when i interviewed you a couple years ago you had the picture of lisa we put it on the air tonight. i know you said even back then you were looking into the crowds whenever you passed a child who would be lisa's age. >> i did it all day when we were walking around before we came here to see you. we were standing on the corner i seen a little girl she was in her stroller she is about lisa's age and i looked down at her and i just -- i said to jeremy, i am really tired of looking at everybody else's kid hoping it is mine. >> what have you done at home with her room? what is her room like now? >> her room is pretty full.
>> of her stuff? >> it is all her stuff. we haven't taken -- we haven't done anything with it since the time she was kidnapped other than we have had to try to stockpile ought of the gifts and presents that ourselves and other people family members have got ten her. she got christmas, birthday, everything you know. whenever we go shopping for the boys we get her stuff too. so her room is a little organized chaos. >> is it hard to walk by that? >> it feels good to go in there and smell her. and know that some day she is going to come home and see all of these presents and she is going to be excited to open them and to watch her reaction and
stuff like that. i think it will be special. something special for her to know that while she was gone we didn't stop buying her things and thinking of her and every cake every birthday. every christmas. right down to little holidays and 4th of july. we buy her costumes for halloween. >> do you think it was this guy jersey? >> well we keep saying one of the more difficult things is we don't ever get any information, need back from other people, law enforcement. i don't know. >> did they ever find fingerprints in the house of another person? >> not that we are aware of. >> they have not divulged any
information. there may be things that we don't know about. >> what about a cadaver dog in the bedroom? >> the there has never been anything in the bedroom. >> ever reports of anybody dying in the house? >> we did research but as far as we know no. >> what about in terms of your own behavior? >> i wish i hadn't been drinking. because i mean i feel like it was planned and they were going to take her and it was going to happen but i feel like maybe if i hadn't been drinking i would have heard something and got up. i feel like i didn't save her. >> it was the one night you worked over time.
a oo if you have any information you believe you can help find lisa irwin call or log on to find lisa irwin.com. find lisa irwin.com. we will be posting specials on-line as well. go to facebook.com/kelly files. follow me on twitter@megyn kelly. go to those sites and let me know what you think. i am megyn kelly this is "the kelly files."
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